storm trooper behind him. now this girl has some captions for you. >> bill had a good one -- "the ability to take a selfie is insignificant against the power" -- >> come on, do it in the voice. >> what's the voice? >> the to the power of the force. >> do it in the voice. >> may the force be with you. >> steve said, move, i'm instagram, your father is cool. >> "morning joe" starts right now, natalie. ♪ of course thanksgiving, as always, reminded me of what i'm most grateful for that poor people still can't get health insurance. because the obama care website remains a disaster even though now the administration's website gurus are bragging that healthercare.gov is working more than 90% of the time. that's good enough for government work. get on the school bus, kids,

principal obama said the bridge is 90% complete. okay. good morning. it's tuesday, december 3rd. it's december. everybody get that into their heads. christmas is almost here. >> okay. with us on set -- >> can we show this picture that they have there. >> oh, i'm so grossed out. my daughters were frightened. >> willie geist can you explain that picture? >> look how cute and clean you look. >> i had the beard for the last 30 days. >> look at him. >> yesterday on the "today" show the viewers decided what to take it down to. i was shaved down a mustache. the viewers decided. >> wait. i don't want to see this. >> there's the undercarriage. >> i think cronkite used to do that. >> al got the goatee.

i got the mustache. i went to the art of shaving on the upper west side in short order. >> let's open up the geist files. >> the geist files. bill geist carries it very well. >> mine is red. >> now look at you, willie, it's like a baby's bottom. >> it feels good. i can shave again. whole month of not shaving. >> i feel so sorry for you guys. >> took good care of you? >> good. great. >> why do you always jump the gun? seriously. you're like -- what is the condition? >> an idiot. >> it's a condition. with us now, john meacham who was with us at vanderbilt yesterday. >> they were clapping for you down there. very excited. willie was much missed.

>> seriously, everybody, everybody, asked about you. >> they love you, willie. it's a great place. >> it is a great place. wonderful people. wonderful city. >> they all invited us out to dinner. >> would you like to come over and have some dinner with us. they are just very polite. >> very polite. >> gracious people. >> mike barnacle is here. >> mike you have a prediction coming off last night. >> seattle is going the super bowl. >> they took apart new orleans. >> stopped them. >> what happened? when did they become such a great team? >> that's a good question. and i think if russell wilson and the seattle seahawks played on the east coast russell wilson would be the face of the national football league. but he plays in seattle. might as well be playing in beijing. you don't hear a whole lot about

him. the kid is incredible. there would be no rg3. it would be russell wilson. >> i hate people who are so east coast centric. >> it's awful. >> is ellsbury going to detroit? that's what everybody right now in san antonio is asking. >> he could be going to seattle, 140 million. could be going to detroit, seattle, maybe texas. >> this is stuff you talk about usually before the show or during the break. in washington we have white house correspondent for the associated press, julie pace. good to see you. a lot to get to. >> julie in a little bit we'll get to a story, julie has done on affordable care act. a lot to talk about today including some disturbing education all rankings coming out. >> we'll get to that. we'll begin with the train derailment in new york.

federal investigators are turning their attention to the engineer as new revelations of just how fast the train was going. the train was going 82 miles per hour when it took that curve. it should have been traveling at just 30 miles per hour. nbc's tom costello has the latest on the investigation. >> reporter: on the tracks in the bronx mta crews lifted the remains of the broken train as crash investigators went in for a closer look. tons of twisted steel scraped and crushed from sunday's violent crash. the ntsb announced the two black boxes recovered from the train revealed a stunning development. >> train was traveling at approximately 82 miles per hour as it went into a 30 mile-per-hour curve. >> reporter: 82 miles per hour. only six seconds before the train came to a complete second engine power was cutback. then the engineer suddenly applied full brakes. >> when i heard about the speed, i gulped.

it sort of takes your breath away. >> reporter: the engineer has told police i' played the brakes but they didn't work. but investigators say they are not aware of any problems with the brakes and they had worked at the nine stops before train crashed. along this stretch of the hudson line trains can run at 70 miles per hour. but they must slow dramatically down to 30 miles per hour as they make that left-hand turn. for whatever reason that didn't happen. the engineer was in the first car as all the cars came barreling off the tracks coming to rest within inches of the harlem river. seven cars came around the bend and then the flew off the tracks. rail sources said had the cars gone into the river many people could have drowned. speed and driver inattention had been factors in other major rail disasters. in spain this year, 79 people died in a crash that investigators blamed on the engineer who was speeding and texting. in 2008, 25 died in california. the ntsb said that driver was

also speeding and texting just before the crash. ntsb investigators say they are looking at the cell phone belong to sunday's engineer. >> and, mike, that engineer is still alive. what's so frustrating about this, our infrastructure is crumbling around, you know, the biggest city in america, and this was -- this accident, if this was the case was avoidable. >> we're spending more on infrastructure in kandahar than in the united states of america. there's technology available that clearly, apparently, from what you read and hear that would have slowed that train automatically prior to reaching the bend and it's been available for a couple of years. it hasn't been installed because of delays, delays and delays. and the city asked to delay a requirement, to push it off for two years. so we're going to have this technology in 2015, but they didn't want to pay for it now.

>> look at us. meanwhile one other sort of side note to the story. out going mayor michael bloomberg has faced questions over his handling of the incident. the "wall street journal report"ing he was golfing in bermuda at the time of the crash and didn't leave the course until at least 1:00 p.m. local time. yesterday he visited victims in the hospital and said he was briefed for about 30 minutes right after the accident. the "new york daily news" quotes the mayor as saying what can i do, i'm not a professional firefighter or police officer. nothing i can do. all i can do is make sure that the right people from new york city, our police commissioner, our fire commissioner and emergency management commissioner are there. >> they want the mayor there, john meacham. >> that's unusual for bloomberg because he learned the rudy giuliani lesson. he has been a tireless presence in the city and that's pretty clearly, you know -- it's unfortunate circumstance he was out of town. but that's -- people who know

bloomberg know that statement comes straight from the heart what he said. because he's very -- there's a core there, there's a clinical core to bloomberg. it's not a mistake or coincidence that his company is built on data. >> he's also correct. he has a right to a personal life. he was in bermuda. he was playing golf. he comes back when he could come back. i guess after he played 18. but what could he do? >> six years ago he would have gotten on a plane and gotten there immediately. >> he has a right to be away for thanksgiving. the part people have a problem with the minute you hear it you get on a plane and come back. >> another story in the news. >> new report on american education this morning. not looking good. next generation. >> this is unbelievable. >> more good news. >> in fact an international assessment of teenagers around the world shows u.s. students

slipping even further behind in math, american 15-year-olds dropped six places since 2009. they now ranked 31st among 65 countries and districts that make up the lion's share of the global economy. american teens are down four spots in science coming in at 24. and they slipped another -- >> this is unbelievable. >> ten spots -- >> look at that. >> to 21st when it comes to reading. several chinese cities as well as japan and singapore saw their students improve significantly. >> willie geist, your mom has been involved in educational reform. we were talking about mike bloomberg who dedicated four years to it. the gates spent billions and billions of dollars and the only thing -- not the only thing but one of the main things they learned reducing class sides. they spent billions of dollars on that. that doesn't work.

man, the past four years when it seems everybody's focus has turned to education reform in a big way, just been disastrous, not disastrous but terrible. our state of the union are getting worse and worse. >> this is a trajectory we've seen for more than a decade. it goes back. maybe you say we'll give the reforms of the last few years to settle in. reaction to this study was amazing. you have all these special interest groups saying it's not our fault. it's not the fact that we're teaching the wrong way. it's not the fact we're holding teachers accountable through test scores. nobody wants to say hey there's a problem let's do something about it. even when a big national cry signatures everybody goes into their bunkers and protects their own interests. >> julie pace, race to the top doesn't seem like they are going in the right direction. >> it is pretty amazing when you look at these statistics and you

look at the time and attention the administration says that they are to discussion on education through programs like race to the top. i'm struck when i travel overseas with president obama particularly asia and you hear from foreign leaders and other folks about the education programs in their countries. there's this one story the president talks about quite often when he went to south korea and the president of south korea told him that his biggest problem with education was that parents were getting too involved. they were calling the teachers too often. such a striking contrast to a lot of the stories that we hear about education here in the u.s. >> mike, john, we're spending more. we talked about this yesterday as a country. if it were only so easy we are not spending enough money on education. let's raise taxes and spend more money on education. we spend more money per student than any other country in the world. and yet we're falling further and further behind.

your wife also very involved in education reform. i mean it seems so many people have taken a real interest in this over the past decade. and the numbers keep slipping. >> they keep slipping. i'll quote my wife on this. her view is having worked in charter schools and curriculum reform is that there's no silver bullet. what might work in tennessee might not work in arizona, might not work in new york. >> one size fits all does not work. >> there's not a kind of, i don't want to sound like a states rights guy but there's not a national answer to this. it is, in fact, a national security issue. it's about imperial decline. >> mike, a very interesting thing about this study, poland one of the great success stories. one of the things they did was they focused more on who went to

traditional colleges and who was moved over to vo tech areas. that is one area we have to really have a radical overhaul of our education system because we need vo tech -- over the next decade we need vo tech schools to prosper. >> that's part of the solution. the biggest part of the solution i felt for a long time is we have to listen to jack knick colsd ni nickolson's line, you can't handle the try. we'll get parents more involved in a good way. everybody doesn't get a trophy. we put too much blame and burden on the teachers yet the school day has to be extended i would

think in most cities. i think you're right, john, it's a state by state issue. you can't have a national thing going. >> maybe city by county. >> the thing is for any parent and, mika, you've seen this and, john, you're seeing this, and, mike, you saw this with timmy, you're going to see it, willie. it's not like our kids are not getting enough homework. good lord. they have more homework. >> there's at that reason they have a lot of homework. >> i just don't understand why our students are failing. it certainly is not the number of hours put in at school. my 10-year-old girl goes to school until 4:00. >> i think you're right about that. but i would submit that the current system that we have in this country, when you feed it into the demographics of this country, you have a whole big percentage of people, young people, kids, who are in

inner-city schools who are looking at an economic death sentence because of a lack of education, fundamentally good education that they are getting compared to many suburban schools. >> i do want to say one other thing. the "wall street journal report"ed in case you're at home and wondering because it's not like we're finland, where there are some people in inner cities that have worst schools and more challenges because of socio-economic problems that accounts sfo iv -- for 10% to 15%. arne duncan said the problems are in the suburbs as well as inner cities. t.j., let's put it quickly. t.j., same thing with your kids. they are at school until 4:00 and then tons of homework. >> yeah. sometimes an hour, hour and a half of homework. >> which, again, if you're getting out like i did at

12:00 -- but, again, you got small kids that are in school until 4:00 then you got an hour and a half of homework. we're just not doing things as efficiently, i guess. i don't know. a lot of soul searching required. >> let's turn to politics for one more story here and we'll get to aca a little later. the tensions behind presidential politic ace pear to be playing out between governors of neighboring states. did you guys hear about this? it's been bubbling chris christie was discussing about running against andrew cuomo for governor. cuomo reportedly down played the report saying, cuomo said this, i can tell you this. i spoke to governor christie this morning who told me the exact opposite and i'll leave it at that. the comments put christie in a tight spot with his own party.

>> you don't say? >> he's in charge of the republican governor's association which tries to get republicans elected. yesterday chris christie tried to set the record straight. >> mr. asterino hasn't told me or anyone else he's run for governor. i won't support someone who won't say they are running or not. it's much ado about nothing. my guess is some people, irresponsible folks who are trying touring him to run to try to create an image that, you know, i'm urging him to run. i'm not urging him to do anything. he came and asked for time specifically asked for time with me and mary, for he and his wife to meet with the two of us the impact it has on our family. they have young children like we do and that's what the whole conversation was about. when we have a republican nominee for new york then i'll support the republican nominee for new york. >> i had no idea.

as he said i was at the republican governor's association. he's westchester, one 2-1 margin as a conservative in a democratic area. but everybody there knew he was running. i don't understand the confusion here. he talked to ed koch and everybody else. >> why would it be a bad thing, if chris christie is head of the rga, you would assume he would take up the cause. >> he and andrew cuomo have had a good relationship on the phone. when cuomo first got elected he was calling chris christie. now he doesn't want to admit that to his democratic friends but he got a lot of guidance from chris christie early on. they have a close relationship. i'm sure -- i'm not going to speculate what went on between the two of them. >> i wonder.

>> well, i'm just going to stop there. they had a very good relationship over the phone for the past several years. >> did they violate a kind of incumbent protection club? >> a code. yes. >> i don't know. >> culturally. >> i don't know. there is no such dpocode if you the read of the republican association and you hug president obama a couple of weeks before. chris is a good friend of ours and we talk to chris an awful lot on phone. knows this and i'm sure all the people around him knows the. he can't afford too many more touchy feeley moments with democrats. he does have to aggressively be out for every republican candidate running for governor, right? you're smiling. >> unless they are not a good candidate. >> i think he likes hanging around with democrats. >> you think chris does?

>> yes. >> he likes hanging around with people who he thinks are competent. >> he's not afraid of them. >> you got no problem with that. >> no. >> what's wrong? >> you're smirking a lot. mike knows something. >> what did you hear? >> he heard something. >> you look like you're up to something. >> he's in the classroom makes trouble and doesn't get in trouble. >> still love him. they shouldn't but they do. coming up on "morning joe" we'll talk to moderator of "meet the press," david gregory, hill kristol and unanimous snyderman. >> good morning, everyone. airport trouble today. we're looking at a large storm

moving into the middle of the country. this will be a big ice storm for dallas and little rock, maybe memphis not until thursday. today if you're flying out of these airports you could have some concerns. dense fog from dallas area right all the way up almost to chicago. significant airport delays are possible. st. louis, memphis and oklahoma city. minneapolis snowstorm will start later on tonight and denver your troubles will start later tonight. avoid those airport physician you can. so that big storm is going to bring in arctic blast. east coast you're fin for two or three more days. cold air will spread with the ice storm in the middle of the nation and snowstorm from colorado, denver up to 12 inches and fargo and minneapolis accumulating snows later on tonight. east coast, enjoy this warmth while it lasts because this upcoming weekend will be much, much colder. new york city, some sunshine this afternoon. after a chilly start.

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we got to go back. can we go back to that picture. willie geist. >> it's iconic. >> this is nathan, once again. >> nathan. that's going over the fireplace. if i had a fireplace that would go over the fireplace. >> it's going over my fireplace. >> get a fake fireplace that you put up against the wall and then put that picture up over it. >> i got a couple of bathrooms in my house. i'll frame that. >> in the master? >> and the guest. >> so -- >> what was that, t.j.? >> oh, my gosh, shock jock sound

effects. it's barnacle. >> speaking of bathrooms, turn that mic off. >> look who is here. visiting professor from the macintosh chair. >> take a look at the morning papers. "detroit free press" in just a few hours a judge will rule if detroit should get the green light to brode it's chapter 9 bankruptcy filing. if approved the bankruptcy would be the largest in u.s. history. >> from the telegraph, police in iceland shot and killed an armed gunman marking the first time a police operation resulted in the death in the country's history. reports say the suspect was killed after shooting two unarmed officer who tried to enter his apartment. iceland has an incredibly low crime rate. 20i7b 09 only four gun related deaths. by comparison 31,000 gun deaths in u.s. >> "usa today," legendary singer bob dylan is facing charges of incitement to hatred in france. >> you got this?

>> it all stems from an interview he gave to rolling stone more than a year ago where he was talking about racism in america. he said quote, if you got a slave master or a klan in your blood, blacks can sense that. that stuff lingers to this day. just like jews can sense nazi blood and serbs can sense croatian blood. >> dylan is facing a year in prison and a fin. >> from "usa today," jeff bezos gave us a glimpse of the future of drone use and it may be lucrative. faa is expected to draft new regulations by 2015. it could boost the economy by $13 billion and create 70,000 jobs in the first three years end be a boom for those guys that, you know, cut tree branches. tree services. >> san jose mercury news online

shoppers broke records on cyber monday with sales up as much as 19% from last year. experts say yesterday may have been the heaviest online shopping day in history. possibly drawing in more than $2 billion in sales. estimates project more than 130 million americans would go online to cash in on holiday sales. >> from the desert sun, applebies will place tablets on all their table. it won't replace servers. customers can order additional food, pay bills or play game. >> will they have nutritional information. >> i love applebies. >> now in the event you may have forgotten your own screen so you can have no human contact applebys is there. >> they are expected to roll out 100,000 tablets to 2,000

restaurants. >> julie has been sitting here patiently. the ceo of politico. >> how was the roll out? >> amazing. you go the site launch. capit capitalnewyork.com. >> that's the most wisconsin thing you've ever said. >> let's talk business. after two months of battling negative headlines white house is looking to turn the page on obama care. today the president kicks off a new three week campaign to refocus the public's attention on the positive aspects of the health care law. what does that entail? >> this is what democrats wanted for two years. they say every day between now and december 23rd they will do some event to talk about each day one different good part of the health care law in their view. the idea is they got to do something about this sinking poll numbers for health care reform. they got to recalibrate the

debate gaven they went through the worst possible coverage of the roll out. the question is, can that work. if the site does work. if people does start to get health care coverage you'll get a different debate. the question is how much damage was done and is this thing fixed? you guys had a good conversation yesterday on the show yes the front end fixed but is the back end fixed in a way to lead people getting coverage that they can trust that insurance companies know what benefits they are getting as far as subsidy from the government to provide. >> if you go on this big campaign to highlight the website and highlight the plan and program it better work, right? so the front end of the website will work but there's problems with insurers. is the white house confident that it will be smooth out by the time they get through this three week campaign? >> they feel fairly confident. one of the big things, those that they are worried about is what happens on the back end of the website. now they have been able to have the page load faster.

they have been able to have more people get on the site. what they are still finding is that those folks who are able to enroll when their information goes to insurers it's garbelled. the insurers say it's unjustable. people who waited it out, got through the site and enrolled may find out come january 1st when they use their benefits they may not have coverage and that would be the latest indignity for this program. >> best case scenario ten of three weeks what does it took like for the white house? >> i don't think you can move the needle in three weeks. best case there's not a bunch of glitches and you don't have stories in every newspaper saying the system continues. >> this story, and we -- i'm sure like everybody else, i mean -- well, actually we made decision on what stories we cover randomly. it's by the gut. but, the first pass through had the obama care stories number

one and two. and god, we've been doing that for a month and a half, two months. let's move it down. the train derailment. education scores people are inned in that. it's almost like they had the first barrage of bad stories and now i think people's attention goes somewhere else and if they get it right -- i'm sure at politico you guys feel the same way. we can't lead every day with another obama care story. >> at some point people get it. >> by the way, this is not because of liberal bias this is because we're capitalists and we want people to read -- go to our websites, watch our shows and this is what americans want. at some point you don't do it every single day unless there's a really big story. >> what's different is what you guys talked about at the top of the show today, what they have in common those do affect almost everybody. we talk about a lot of issues that are fascinating that are not relevant to how people live

their lives. health care, education hugely important. as long as people aren't getting something they need i think it will continue to be a story. the question is what is it at the local level? there's one thing for us to be popping off. another thing if these things aren't working at the state level. if people aren't getting insurance that they think they will get. if they are not getting the benefits -- >> see that's a huge story. when you have people bragging about yesterday, the website and i'm not underplaying any of this, i'm saying tactically the white house may have a little bit of cover because as we see these news cycles go and we move on to something else and this morning i guarantee you more americans are concerned about our dropping education standards than the latest follow up on a story they have been hearing about every day for two months. >> if you're on the inside this is the virtue of the short attention span. they lived through vices of our obsession, i think the former

clinton communications guy who said the white house press corps is like the kids at a soccer game they just chase the ball. so we've chased the ball and now we'll chase another one for a while. that's my question. what does the white house think the issues are that can take the 37%, 38% and bump it up. >> if people get coverage and it's cheaper. they think at the end of the day they will reward the politicians that voted for it. people have to get on the site. they have to be able to get the insurance. they have to see a subsidy that allows home to get insurance that costs them less. they are getting better benefits. those two things don't happen. big promise was not kept. >> really quickly, willie, i figured it out. very excited. figured out where i'll put the picture of willie. >> good. >> in my household. >> where? >> right there. you like that? >> there he go. >> i put on my paisley smoking

jacket at night and sit there. >> you got the stylist for the lili pulitzer campaign. >> kind of creepy. >> it's cool? >> no creepy. >> it's very wisconsin. >> stick around, jim, we got more to talk about. coming up the seahawks came on strong on monday night football. but it was an incredible showing by seattle. we'll show you the highlights when we come back. [kevin] paul and i have been friends...

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welcome back to "morning joe." supposed to be a monday night massive match-up, saints and seahawks, up in seattle where a lot of teams have lost over the years. this thing never close. first quarter new orleans down 3-0. drew brees out of the shotgun in trouble. michael bennet takes a 22 yard

score. 10-0 seattle. russell wilson throws for 310 yards. three touchdowns. leads the seahawks to a complete domination of new orleans. seattle is now 11-1 and the first team to clinch a spot in the playoffs. that right now is the best team in football. no doubt about it. >> when did they get so good? >> they have been good for the last three or four years. i'm telling you, russell wilson is -- when they drafted him he was too short. doesn't have the nfl body. wasn't supposed to be the right kind of guy. designee transferred to university of wisconsin. 30 touchdowns. goes to the nfl does the exact same thing. if he was playing for another team he could be a super star. >> the espn east coast by as that prevented america from finding out that this guy is the best of all.

>> that team is one of the most balanced team. they are more balanced than the 49ers. >> when we have a practicing policy that we only talk about east coast teams. >> yeah. >> what is that? >> all right. >> a last second thriller in college hoops 12th rank uconn. taking on florida. >> some playoff some type of ball screen. >> eight seconds to go. >> there's the switch. >> trouble with five seconds to go. lost the dribble. found it again. liens in. no good. for the win! he got it! >> just the way he planned it. 26 points. uconn stays undefeated. 8-0. >> fans still talking about saturday's unbelievable ending. it's one of the best rivalries

in sports. gets heated at times. i in 2010 an alabama fan was sent to jail for poisoning oak trees at auburn university. after saturday's game we have new evidence of fan dedication. this is a photograph tweeted out by the auburn turf team at the stadium. those are cremated human remains that a fan dump don't field spreading the ashes on a holy site. this is not the first time that the crew has an afor identifying human remains because it happens so often. >> i'm sorry. in the word of paul mccartney what's wrong with that? >> that means somebody already had the remains at the game. it was happening either way. >> just in case. you never know. >> seriously, if you got to scatter your ashes and you're an auburn fan. you know they aren't going to beat alabama again. >> okay. wrap it. .

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if healthercare.gov is work i have the other side of the story unless you want to comment. >> it's too early. it really is too early to tell. people doing rah-rah speeches on either side, predicting what's going to happen. >> republicans have been on this. kind of hateful. >> just like democrats are opportunistic as well. >> in this case -- >> would you like to look at press releases during the iraq war and what some of the most esteemed members of the united states senate said compared our american troops to in the middle of the iraq war. yes. in washington, d.c. they are

opportunistic. what a shock. republicans meet democrats. democrats meet republicans. >> okay. >> am i wrong? >> no. they just didn't have any alternatives and they shut down the government and been quite hateful about this. ridiculous. you know it. >> they haven't been hateful. >> how would you characterize it? >> opportunistic. democrats are the same when there's a republican president. it's washington, d.c. >> they are not that self-destructive. >> my gosh they are. >> i've seen similarities in the behavior, it's politics. but one thing to bring your party down. and to be destructive to the process. >> look what democrats said in 2004, 2005, 2006 and what the news outlet, left wing news out lets said during that time. it's a complete -- it's a 180 from what's happening right now. >> you alluded to this last

night. ronald reagan in 1965 made an album which was the blog of the mid-'60s to attack medicare. >> warmed over socialism. >> yeah. was that opportunistic? absolutely. that's what politics is on this setting. they have been both unwise and opportunistic. >> you don't think they have been destructive julie pace? >> i think the white house is certainly hoping to focus more on republicans and not having an alternative to health care and try to remind people that they did try to shut down the government because of the obama care law. i think when the president comes out today and tries to tell some of the benefits you'll hear the second part of the argument which is, hey republicans you're not doing much to help us along here and by the way if you hate this law so much what's your idea. >> let me read another take. fire your team, mr. president. president obama needs to fire

himself, not literally, of course, but practically. he needs to shake up his team so thoroughly that the new blood imposes change on how he manages the federal bureaucracy and leads. series of self-inflighted wounds during his fifth year in office capped by the botched health care law. second term presidents rarely recover after their approval ratings fall as much as obama's have this year. history also suggest that there are two types of white house shakeups. he fires somebody anybody as a is a cry official lamb. the second is deep cleansing. jim, the question everybody asks does he have this in him? >> it's nuts. he's not going to fire his staff. he's not going to make that kind of change. at the end of the day the white house reflects the president. are your going to bring in different staff and have new blood in his veins.

that's not how presidents work. he never wanted to have people around him who he doesn't consider close in many cases intimate friends. that's where his comfort zone is. he won't bring in republicans and bring in old hands from the democratic party. it sounds good but it's not sensical. he won't do it. >> why? >> one he only has a couple of years left in the white house. he likes those around him. the chief of staff is relatively new. it's a different team. you don't have rahm emanuel or david plouff or david, ale rod or robert gibbs. you have a lot on this show talk about what's going on but not advising him. there is new blood. at the end of the day just as a company reflects who thaepd of the company is you have a white house that reflects the president. this is his comfort zone poinl. all of this stuff they just roll their eyes with good cause when all of us say you should talk to republicans more. he's just not going to do it.

>> they are what at 38% right now? >> would that change with a different staff >> he's at 38% right now. what do they call him? they call him still mr. president. he'll be president of the united states for another three years no matter what we write or say he's the president. >> on tomorrow's show, house deputy whip congressman koem cole. steve case and president of columbia, juan nahinu elmanuel . "morning joe" will be back in a second. i have low testosterone. there, i said it.

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up next the moderator of "meet the press" david gregory joins us. also from "the weekly standard" bill kristol. keep it right here on "morning joe." keeping up with these two is more than a full time job and i don't have time for unreliable companies. angie's list definitely saves me time and money.

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jumping up and down in the background. sometimes reporters have to yell at them or chase them away. that was not the case on black friday. >> let's see who we can talk to. sir, sir, come back. >> hi, guys. come on over here. no, no, come on over here. this is a nice human. maybe he'll talk to us. wait, excuse me. can i talk to you really quick. you're a greatest shopper i've ever seen. when did you start? >> i don't speak english. [ laughter ] >> she will find somebody. >> oh, my goodness welcome back to "morning joe." john mecham and jim is still with us along with julie pace. joining us now the editor of "the weekly standard," bill kristol. in washington moderator of "meet

the press," david gregory. good to have you all on board. >> joe wants to talk more about the auburn-alabama game. loyal son of alabama i know how he feels today. the injust i was the life. the tragic character of sports. >> nasty and broodish. we won't talk about it. >> the rest of us are enjoying it. 97% of america was rooting for auburn. >> 98, 99. we're the new york yankees of college football. >> less likeable than the new york yankees. >> new york yankees are pretty unlikable. >> alabama, freud. >> okay we'll get to the latest on train derailment in a moment. can you believe this guy was going 82 miles per hour? he was supposed to be going at the most 30. >> it's insanity. bill, yesterday we were talking about infrastructure and talking about how it's, despite the fact

that a lot of new yorkers pay over 50%, all the money they make, the government on one level or another, infrastructure in the city is horrific. and here we got an example of something that should be so avoidable that just wasn't. >> i don't know. i grew up in new york. we had a pretty good public transit. of course that was when government was much smaller and focused on fewer things. this is one of the things government is supposed to do in cities. maybe if government focused on actual core services, and didn't have insane rules and regulations to make it impossible to ever build another subway line or do that kind of thing, maybe different requirements for hiring people and you know how hard it is to fire people that aren't doing a good job driving these trains. it's a terrible thing. >> it is tragic. >> we don't know definitively whether it was human error or mechanical. >> we know there's technology

out there that regardless of whether it was human error or whether it was mechanical error that would have slowed the train down going around the concern. it seems to me we now got jets that literally, you get them up in the air they will fly to a destination without a pilot and land, it will be a rough landing. they fix the beacon at the end of the runway and fly themselves. here you can't keep a track on a track going around a corner. it's insanity. i asked bill that question because there are some conservatives that actually believe like i believe there are things that the government can and should do effectively and one of them is infrastructure and it's not all -- >> basics of our country's foundation, education, infrastructure. >> yeah. >> one thing they can do for infrastructure is let the private-sector which often does work better than the public sector, i believe, even though i know obama care's website is

operating at private-sector -- it took me eight seconds. seriously. you think about incentivizing private companies to run these trains. >> kit work in a place like new york? >> you mentioned airlines. >> right. >> they are highly regulated. airports have all kinds of issues but they are private companies and have a big incentive to have a good safety record. >> it's pretty remarkable that air safety, my gosh, the changes over the past decade in air safety, the advances we made. the few accidents that there are. >> yeah. >> knock on wood, we all fly too much. the next day scarborough boarding a plane to eternity. >> after nearly two months of battling negative headlines the white house is looking to turn the page on obama care today.

the president will kick off a new three week campaign to refocus the public's attention to the positive aspects of the health care law. senior administration official -- >> even you can't keep a straight face. >> exactly. >> doesn't that say it all? >> a lot of times after the show seriously she will look at me -- we're all sitting here the president said this. she does this occasionally -- i got nothing. i got noing. >> i have hope. >> didn't julie andrews say that. >> don't you have to be nice. secondly i think you ought to listen to what i have to say bill kristol, senior administration officials tell politico the white house will target different benefits of the law each day. >> that's going to be a short campaign. >> roughly 100,000 people signed

up for health insurance through the federal exchange last month. that's up from just under 27,000 people who successfully signed up for coverage in october. meanwhile the white house picked up a key legal victory yesterday as the supreme court said it would not hear a case challenging the laws employer mandate. however, a new poll shows one key group president obama was hoping would sign up for coverage the so-called young invincibles is the least informed about the law. gallop finds 63% of adults under the age of 30 say they are familiar with the law. that's nine points lower than any other group suggesting the white house still has a lot of work to do. and yesterday, during a google hang out, senator john cornyn accused the obama administration of lying on a number of issues including the benghazi raid and obama care. >> i think the current administration has taken lying to a new level.

the willingness to mislead people or provide them just demonstrably false information and expect to move on. we've seen that most recently in the health care debate over if you like what you have you can keep it. something we can go back to 2010 and demonstrate that the department of health and human services knew was false. >> jim, he's running for re-election next year. >> is that an excuse. >> a lot of democrats running in the south and i think you guys have the story on this, a lot of democratic senators running in the south next year are hearing that over and over again and will have a receptive audience. what cornyn said a lot of swing voters in the south believe. >> if i'm in the south and a democrat i'm worried about the ramifications of obama care. that's what they are picking up in their andy poling. you see these democrats who felt safe a month ago who feel they

can lose. we were talking earlier what should you watch in the next three weeks. >> name them. >> arkansas that was a toss up now looks unwinnable. >> louisiana? >> louisiana which looked like was going to be in play. you take these states. >> north carolina. >> every single seat that could possibly be in play might be in play because of health care. that's the thing to watch for in the next three weeks. if these senators go home and hear a continued backlash that's bad news for obama because he'll lose his support among democrats. so far they held firm. they are with him. but each week it gets a lot harder. once those poll numbers break that's when they break. >> john meacham. >> bill, do you think or would you agree that the absence of a compelling counter narrative to a proposal on the health care is at all relevant here or is just the obama care itself such a significant political issue that undoing it will carry the

republicans through? >> no, i think republicans, they have had positive proposals, alternative proposals but haven't done a good job explaining it. paul ryan will unveil a comprehensive set of proposals, not one huge proposal but something to deal with medicare, medicaid. equalize the tax treatment. that will be in january and help republican candidates in 2014. i don't think it's just the south. i know you guys think the south is some bizarre place -- >> wait a second. >> a man who was born in northern georgia, lived in mississippi, us t mississippi. >> my point is in senate races in place like iowa, michigan, colorado, obama care is equally a problem. a woman is running in upstate new york, all she gets asked about she says is obama care and not just the individual

insurance market, small businesses are having problems. supplementary medicare, medicare advantage. again, you can talk about narratives, but the fact that jeff anderson, a colleague of mine who runs the 2017 project, to help republicans develop a positive reform agenda they did a study of the actual subsidies in the program and it turns out if you're poor you get morgan. but young people get very little. it's not just like a narrative that young people may not want to buy this insurance but they look at what they will get. they are getting much less than people realize. >> makes sense for them to pay fin. mika what bill has been saying and identify been saying this with you, everybody has been saying this. there's a lot of concern about affordable care act, obama care right now and people are talking about it all over the country and it's a great opportunity for republicans. for to us have a huge year like we did in 1994 we'll have to

have the sort of alternatives that bill is talking about. do you hear that, whether it's republican governor's association or in washington now, there is that understanding. i would be stunned if you didn't see a variety of alternatives. >> david gregory for those running for re-election and all the negative messages that are in this narrative right now in terms of obama care how fair are they and how hard of a slog will it be for the white house to try to turn this around? >> i think it will be difficult. ultimately they have to prove successful with the website. they have to have more positive stories that flood the marketplace and the media. look at story after story, morning after morning we're having this conversation of what the difficulties are, what the andy poling is, what we simply are confused by. they are going the need so much success even that's going to lag before they get to a place where people start to think hey i'm more confident about this.

i'm actually of two minds about the electoral prospects on this. look the reality is the president took on a big idea pep got it passed with democrats only. and now he's got to execute. so republicans can be blamed and i agree with joe that like 1994 be very effective for republicans to go out there and say look this is how government can work properly, this is how government can take on a big societal problem like the lack of health insurance and exploding health care costs more effectively. i think they can do that. short of that they can stand up there and say this president had a big idea. has it worked? has he executed? if not you should throw democrats out of power. i think that could be a very persuasive argument and democrats think that too. they worry as you get into january and february and we're still having implementation problems and i want becomes a crisis for them in the mid-terms. >> we said it here on the so for

six years. you can beat something with nothing. you can't get elected as president. it's not a governing philosophy when you run for president. it's just not. you're exactly right, david, that doing nothing, being against it is enough for 2014. if we're interested in beating hillary clinton and getting back in the white house we have to come up with a government philosophy on health care. when david was talk he was talking about president obama had a big idea, and it didn't turn out well. i really believe, one of the biggest problems with the president selling this, from the very beginning, it really wasn't the president's idea. for a year and a half we had democrats come on. i said what do you think about the president's health care plan. for a year and a half the democrats laughed once you fin occupant what the president's health care plan i wish you would let me know. there was frustration for a year and a half from democratic senators.

it wasn't his plan. it wasn't like lbj in charge famously calling the subcommittee chairman saying where are your right now on this piece of legislation? when it's your idea from the beginning, when you build it from the ground up, when you under it intellectually instead of going to big pharma, cutting a deal behind the scene, going to big hospital, cutting a deal and going to the trial lawyers and cobbling this ugly whatever piece of legislation, that's much harder for the president to sell in his gut, right? than lbj selling medicare or reagan selling tax cuts. >> yeah. because we haven't quoted henry adams yet this morning. >> you're trying. >> but, you know, adams' great insight is the president should be a captain like a ship at sea.

he needs a course to steer. it's almost as though obama borrowed the ship from congress. he let them write the bill. and it wasn't -- he got the votes, however is procedural. there's something to that. and is his -- this is the fundamental political question about president obama that historians will debate forever which is what is his heart in? >> i think the substance the important. liberal programs that have been successful and popular in the u.s. and have a certain pattern, medicare, social security, student aid they tax people to give benefits to other people and the people get the benefits like them and sometimes it's the right thing to do and sometimes it's like us they think they are too generous or counter productive. but very rarely is a program intrusive or coercive. the way to do medicare, the way to do this train addition of medicare is raise taxes on people and help poor people purchase health insurance.

not tell people who have their own health insurance and are happy with it you have to go into these exchanges, you have to buy this kind of health insurance. that's why i think if you like it you can keep the thing made an impact. it's not just that president misled, people said okay if we have to pay a little more in taxes to help out the older person or poorer person that's one thing. >> david gregory, that is at the end of the day the big problem here is it took john roberts to say wait a second this is a tax. and bill is exactly right. if you believe 30 million, 35 million americans need to have health care which, boy, a majority of americans believe, you say okay we'll tax -- but instead they created -- >> or set up community health care. think about education. we help with pell grants. we don't tell individuals if you want to go x college or y university and use your money for the curriculum you like you

can't do it. that's what galls people about obama care. >> david? >> i think that's true. there's a level of engineering here that goes on to make a pool work. the creation of a risk pool itself has necessary ingredients. you need a certain amount of young and healthy. a certain amount of older and sicker so it balances out. what does it balance out to? making sure insurance companies are on board. we do this in other aspects of our society. you talked about the train derailment. we do it with government regulation in terms of mandating certain safety levels to ensure a protected population. we do it in terms of insurance for automobiles to engineer the market in a certain way to regulate prices in effect, to keep it secure. but i think in this way -- >> there are a lot of people those in manhattan that don't have auto insurance, though, david, and nobody is compelling them to get it, you know? >> there's no auto insurance

exchange. >> i think that's the issue. in the quest to do good the government is telling you you have to do certain things for your own good and that, frankly, really runs aground of how people, you know, view their own concept of personal liberty on this. i do, joe, just to go back to a point you made. do i think this became the president's idea. i'm with you. i don't think it was something that was heart felt. he wasn't for the individual mandate when he was running for the campaign. i think part of getting ted kennedy's support to make health care as big of an issue as it became. i think it became even more difficult to take this on after the financial collapse and after the bailouts to the idea of getting government involved in something this large. >> i mean, look no, one was able to do it -- you mentioned it was difficult to take on right after the financial crisis. no one could do it, julie pace, and i think it's great everyone can sit here and talk about all the things that are wrong with

it. name someone who was able to do it. it alluded past presidents. bill clinton gave it a shot and wasn't able to do it. to go back to this idea how the president had to cobble together the ideas that made up the law and the votes to pass it, what's so striking about what he's doing today, hat the white house is trying to unveil as something new this idea of trying to sell the benefits of the law. this is a law that passed in 2010 and they are still finding they have to go out and explain to people what is good about it. things like keeping young people on their parents' insurance until age 26. get people with pre-existing coverage. this something they have been trying to do for several years. if that message hasn't stuck then you wonder if they can get the poll numbers for both the president and this law up. >> john meacham. >> the conundrum is that when government works historically in american life it's because

there's a universal benefit, at least for a given group. that is, it's not reform. it's an additional part. so you have social security, which was a universal benefit. medicare, a universal benefit. the g.i. bill. interstate highway, anyone can drive on them. aid to higher education. i think there's something in the american consciousness or american soul even that recognizes government has a role but wants it to be as inclusive as possible. and when you get into reforming 20% of the economy and without that kind of universal benefit i think that's where the presidents run into trouble. >> like the whole tone of this conversation is that it's ultimately a failure. we don't know that. you would say it is a failure. >> i agree. conservatives should not be over confident. >> i would not be over confident

because if more people are getting insurance, if subsidies do work, if more people get the medicaid. the federal exchange learns lessons and works out its wrinkles we can be sitting here six months from now, oh, my gosh, we overreact during that debate. i don't know that's how it will play out. >> you've seen it happen so many times before. overreach. one party overreaches. >> politically things turn. >> i'm skeptical in this case. >> also the social issue. people want health insurance. conservatives shouldn't be sitting back. people will say i don't like paying higher price, i don't like the plan i'm forced to get. i'll go into the exchanges. people will be dragged into these exchanges. i do come back, julie mentioned the 26-year-old staying on the parents' insurance, pre-existing condition. if that all obama care were

people like me might object but agree that would be hard to oppose. president clinton failed as we remember in '92, '93. he passed in '97 and republican congress agreed on the expansion of coverage to youth and younger people. they stopped people from being dumped for having their premiums widely increased. you were guaranteed you could keep the same insurance if you got sick that form. these are complex. it's a complex system. those reforms are easier to sell. it's the social engineering side of it that the obama administration can't walk away from. >> what we don't know is the effect on prices. this cab messy government-run at some level program. but ultimately if there is an effect on the explosiveness of health care in the country everybody is helped because everybody is hurt at some level

because they have no sense how much is getting paid for their own health care. if people are dialed into that. if there's more group responsibility for avoiding the uninsured that does have an effect. >> then you also may not know for some time the ramifications of the republican strategy. good they are going after it. they hate it. it may be they leave people with a bad taste in their mouth saying republicans didn't want americans to have health care. thank god we do. >> that's not the case. i'm feeling pretty good right now and it's not because i don't want americans to have health care. david gregory, julie pace thank you so much. bill kristol, jim. >> not that long ago a clinton won the white house by navigating competing divisions within the democratic party. he may face that same dynamic all over again in 2016. al joins us along with steve

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♪ welcome back to "morning joe" here with us now founder of the democratic leadership council, a.m. fromme the author of "the new democrats" and msnbc political analyst steve schmidt. >> john meacham at vanderbilt i was talk about the voters more willing to do something. in 1992 democrats were facing the same problem losing five out of six elections and this guy right here told them we got to find a new way forward. >> actions of mondale.

>> it was worse. in the three elections in the 1980s democrats were a smaller percentage of electoral votes than any party had won in three consecutive elections in the country. we were out of power. we were out of ideas. completely out of touch with the country. we had to reconnect. >> is obama a new democrat? >> be honest, al. >> come on, al, stay with me here. >> truth to power. >> has the democratic party come a long way from where they were in 1992 ideologically? >> i think the party has moved a lot since where we were in 1992. >> to the left? >> somewhat to the left, maybe. but -- >> somewhat maybe? somewhat to left maybe? >> right now obama care is getting a lot of attention and it's very important that the

democratic party and obama we fix this health care program because the credibility government is on the line and one of the reasons we're in such trouble in the 1970s and 1980s people lost fate in the government's ability to do something. the other thing he needs to do, he needs get on the path of an economic growth program. i mean, my view is that one of the reasons i wrote this book is one, ideas matter and secondly there's some important lessons from both parties. for my party if we want to build a sustainable party and we stay progre progressive -- if we want to build a long term majority then we need to get on the road of economic growth program and we can't, private-sector growth is a key to opportunity because if you don't expand the power you

can't -- there's nothing to spread say round. >> steve, i believe and i'm sure you believe as republicans, as conservatives that the democratic party in 2013 bears very little resemblance to what bill clinton was talking about when he was campaigning in 1992. we always talk about the republicans problems, but the democrats have gone pretty far left at least in our view. >> there's no question that's the case. when bill clinton stood in front of the congress and the american people he said the era of big government is over. and in that moment he institutionalized to a large degree the reagan revolution in much the same way eisenhower did with the new deal by not challenging it, not attempting to roll it back. when we look at the obama presidency, one of the central features of the republican campaigns in 2016 will be to roll back by any means that

we're able to do it the obama care monstrosity as you watch it play out. so, certainly the party is fundamentally more liberal than it was 20 years ago and there's a lot of causes of that, not just the occupant of the white house but, clearly, the era of centrist democrats that, you know, was marked by the rise of bill clinton and his presidency is a chapter in the past now. >> john meacham, we always talk how the republicans, the media like to talk about how republicans have become the far more conservative, far more extreme but who is the centrist democrat out there? is hilary a centrist democrat? who is the most effective centrist democrat in the senate right now? >> well that's a great question. since none of them do a great deal it's hard to say who is effective at all. that's my second question to al is senator clinton the new

democrat? >> i think she was. >> that was a lot quicker than the answer about obama. >> it's in the governors. because they have to govern. steve and i were talking about that before. and that is the experience of governing brings people to the center in trying to get things done. but the challenge for the next democratic president so take the principles that guided us, sort of the grand bargain of opportunity and responsibility, and put together a growth program for the country, bring the country back together. the reason the democrats are probably going to do very well in part is because the republicans have done so badly. the republicans, you can try to sugarcoat it but they basically let their extremists define it. >> you look at the approval ratings of congress, you look at

harry reid's approval ratings it's not much higher than john boehner. >> one of the things that was very poirn what we diimportant e sort of divorced ourselves from what we did in the 1980s. the office of the presidency talks to the whole country. we put together a presidential agenda and that agenda, probably, it was not always popular, let us say among democrats in washington. >> that's exactly, mika, what i heard the republican governor's association. nobody wants to own washington republicans. republican governors across america say this is where the future of the party lies. they are right. >> hillary clinton is a new democrat. who else? >> there's a lot of them. governors. i think andrew cuomo. >> stand outs. >> andrew cuomo has been governing very effectively. here, i think, governors like martin o'malley, john hickman,

all very effective in the senate. people like mark warner, mary landrieu, joe manchin. there's a good cadre of new democrats but building on at that different base because as joe knows because he probably beat us to death with it when he was running for congress, it used to be that he could run against democrats on crime and welfare and a lot of those issues. you can't do that any more because we took those issues away. so i think it's a different, you know, there's a different foundation today. but the challenge for democrats, in my view, is very clear. you got the make government work because if you believe in activist government as most democrats do, you got to make it work. secondly you got to grow the economy because as paul sandson told me you can't pass out the golden egg if you don't worry

about health care. >> one other thing. you talked about growing the economy, about ten times in a five minute interview. that really is the challenge, is it not, for both parties? we have all these ideological battles, you look at real wages going down every year since 1973. you look at job growth struggling. that's the real challenge for republicans and democrats moving forward. >> that's why the 47% comments governor romney made so devastating in that campaign, the plans to grow the economy to give people an opportunity to climb the ladder, church hill said the difference between the left and right the left offers the line, the right offers the ladder. for republicans we need to tell a story how you climb that ladder, how you create opportunity, how you come up to the middle class in this country again. and fundamentally important if we're to be successful. >> the book is "the new

democrats and return to power." al from thank you so much. we're watching major weather changes moving across the country and it could impact travel. bill karins tracking a serious winter storm. "morning joe" will be right back. it's donut friday at the office. and i'm low man on the totem pole.

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welcome back to "morning joe." right on cue, a winter storm is moving down from canada into the central plains. this one will cause a lot of havoc in the central plains from the rockies to texas to ohio valley. dense fog causing problems on the roads and eventually the airports. st. louis i'm concerned with. areas of oklahoma city, little rock, arkansas, all through arkansas to memphis and even down to louisiana. that's why i have those three airports as my major concern for early morning delays. that fog will burn off this afternoon. the big storm is dropping down into northern rockies. cold blast coming in behind it. we got snow out there across montana, i-90 in northern portions of wyoming is now closed because of the snow and the winds that are blowing out

there. every where in pink is our winter storm warning. look how many states have winter storm warning. heavy snow from billings to north and south dakota to fargo north minneapolis. tonight and tomorrow heavy snow in areas of colorado, areas around denver could get six to 12 inches and eventually the problems will move south as dark tick air heads southward. we're looking at possibility of ice. dallas 76 today. you could be skrang ice by thursday or friday. big changes ahead. coming up on "morning joe," everyone knows the kid ted williams. he can swing a bat. much of his remarkable life off the diamond is only now coming to life. the author of new book on the red sox legend joins us next when "morning joe" comes back.

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here with us now, got information reporter and editor for the "boston globe," he's the author of "the kid, the immortal life of ted williams." so many biographies have been written about ted williams. you decided focus instead of just having a glowing portrait of a man that some of us look up to as this amazing icon, your went deep into his personal life, didn't you? >> i did. the earlier books focused mostly on his heroism on the field, his baseball exploits. i felt there was a lot of running room that i could make a contribution. i didn't skimp on the baseball but i concentrated more on his childhood, the fact that he was

mexican-american very few people knew. >> never wanted to admit that, right? >> he was ashamed of that but more of his family circumstance going up in depression era of san diego, the son of a salvation army zealot who was out to all hours of the night saving souls built not home for ted and his younger brother. they would be up 10:00, 11:00 waiting for their mother to come home. >> safe to say you're greatest sports her jobs ted williams? >> absolutely. >> not a close second? >> bobby orr. ted williams, an amazingly rich complex figure both in life and on the athletic field. and literally, steve, you were saying larger-than-life figure, no doubt about it larger-than-life. the thing that interests me most about the book is the character portrait of his life. i mean the fact that, you know, you literally could think he was

two different people, you know. spitting at the fans in 1957, his feuds with what he called the knights of the keyboard. if you got to know him or if you didn't know him, the big loud booming voice, get in here, what's up, what are you doing, talk about the complexity of his character. >> he was an angry guy. but that was also -- >> what was he angry about? >> i think he was angry at the circumstance of his childhood which was really rough. his father was never around. the mother just this religious zealot who tried to get ted to martin salvation army band and beat the bass drum. you can imagine how that went over. and so he had a lot of resentment and he was able to channel his anger constructively

on the baseball field. he would manufacture feuds with the baseball writers and go off on a tear and hit .500 for a couple of months. but this anger caused him immense problems in his personal life. it would bubble up at inappropriate times and circumstances. he skated through three marriages quickly. was an indifferent father. but this anger was leavened by a fundamental kindness. he would do things anonymously to help sick kids with cancer and help his friends who were down on their luck financially. he would do things like call-up a friend and say i'm raising money for the jimmy fund. and the fellow would say gees, ted, i don't have much money now. i'm hurting. this is ted williams, sends me a

check for $10. he would take the account number off the check and send the guy $1,000 has the article from the day after he hit a final home run in his final at-bat and of course the war hero stuff is amazing. but when i think of legends, even living legends, i think about their children, so when it comes to his children, and we know what happened with john henry and the freezing of ted williams' head when he died, you know, in arizona, what do we learn about the children and not just the relationship to him but how their lives have come out? >> well, the older daughter, bobby jo, the child of the first marriage, it was an estranged family, and john henry, the son, e eventually took over his father's affairs and bobby jo felt cut out of the picture. and she died a few years ago.

and there's never been even an obituary to my knowledge. so she was a troubled soul, bobby jo. and an important break for me in the book was the decision by her and claudia, the other surviving daughter, quite separately, since it's an estranged family, to talk to me and tell me what it was like to grow up with ted williams. and bobby jo remembered these bouts of anger that were so intense that she thought he was mentally ill. and he had been bipolar, but they didn't know about bipolar back in those days. and claudia is very much her father's son, doesn't like the press, stiff-armed me for two or three years but then invited me into the house and trusted me to the point of allowing me to stay in the house by myself for the day and rummage through his files. and that was a dream. >> mike, i can understand -- i

didn't understand reading books because, i mean, ted williams played before my time. i understood the fighting with the sportswriters. i didn't understand the fans. they just gave him hell from the outfield, would just yell at him. that would be like as an atlanta braves fan when we had nothing to cheer about, that would be like us giving hank aaron hell. i mean, he was -- he was -- we never did. we worshipped hank aaron, and ted williams was just the greatest hitter there was this side of ty cobb. >> fans are fans, though. they would do that, especially in the left field stands up in section 25, left field stands, trying to hit them. >> i love this guy. he was john wayne in real life. >> he was the real john wayne. >> he was the real john wayne. >> but they would cheer as soon as he hit a home run. before you go, if you could, quickly, ben, everybody says ted williams the greatest hitter who

ever lived and joe dimaggio a great ball player, but two people could not be more different, especially as the public viewed them. >> yes. they were sort of total opposites, and ironically, you know, most athletes fade away. ted gained immense popularity, became more popular after he retired than before. he became a beloved figure, whereas dimaggio seemed obsessed with the memorabilia market always making money, never picked up a check in his life, insisted on having coat holders and sycophants around him. >> isn't that interesting how their paths really did cross. everybody loved dimaggio when he played, but as he got older you heard these stories of him being a tough, bitter guy. >> yeah. well, he considered ted a lifelong rival, and for joe the rivalry was unfriendly.

for ted it was friendly. >> yeah. steve, you a red sox fan? >> i'm a yankee fan. >> well, why are ru i don't know this set? >> you know, one of the issues, this guy was a bona fide absolute war hero, combat fighter pilot, in two wars, at the heart of his career. >> yeah. that's one of the most interesting things about williams, i think, particularly if you compare him to the present-day superstar athlete. it would be unfathomable. can you see a-rod in iraq or afghanistan? >> for four years. >> i can't see a-rod on long island. >> and here's a guy who it's one of the great parlor games that people play about williams, what would his numbers, total numbers have been if he hadn't missed nearly five years in his prime? but i think in the long run for his legacy it hemmed him to serve in these two wars. it gave him a heroic ethos.

and he was a top gun marine fighter pilot. and shot down in korea. should have been killed, really. >> john glenn was his wing. >> i think he was an ace. >> incredible eyes. we e got to go. john's about to pass out. but incredible eyesight at the plate, incredible eyesight in a plane, then you go to when they are still talking later about how he was one of the best. >> bonefishing. >> bonefishing. all right. thank you so much. obviously, we could stay here and talk to you all day. we almost did. people in my ear screaming. thank you so much, ben. it's "the kid: the immortal life of ted williams." you can read an excerpt on our site, mojo.msnbc.com. thanks, ben. we greatly appreciate it. we'd love to have you back to talk about this even more. you're watching "morning joe." [ lane ] do you ever feel like you're growing old

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okay. good morning. it is tuesday, december 3rd. it is december. everyone get that into your heads. christmas is almost here. >> advent. >> with us on set -- >> wait, wait. can we show this picture that they have over there? >> no. oh, i'm so grossed out. my daughters were frightened. >> willie geist, can you explain that? >> look how cute and cheen he looks. >> i had the beard for the last 30 days. >> look at him. >> then yesterday on the "today" show, the viewers decided what to take it down to. so i was shaved down to a mustache. the viewers decided.

>> i don't want to see this. >> so there's the undercarriage. >> why did you do that? >> i think cronkite used to do that. >> so al got the goatee. i got the stash. and i carried it through the 9:00 hour and quickly went to the art of shaving on the upper west side and they took care of it for me in short order. >> let's open up the geist files. >> i can't handle it. >> the geist files. bill geist carries it very well. >> but mine is red. >> you're ron burgundy. >> the dynasty. >> it's like a baby's bottom. >> it feels good. but now i can shave again, which is the most annoying thing. a full month. >> i feel sorry for you guys, such a hard time in the morning. all right. with us -- >> how was it last night? >> it was just great. >> took good care of you? good. >> why do you always jump the gun? >> what do you mean? seriously.

you're like what is the condition? >> an idiot? >> it's a condition. with us now historian john meacham who was with us at vanderbilt yesterday. >> they were very excited for you down there. willie must much missed. >> yeah. >> really missed you. >> chancellor accidezeppo -- >> they asked about you, willie. great people, wonderful city. >> they all invited us out to dinner. >> a lot of tears. >> their home. would you like to come over and have some dinner with us? >> mint juleps. >> very polite. >> very polite. >> gracious people. >> mike barnicle is here. >> hi, mike. >> and in washington, we have white house correspondent for the associated press, who's that? julie pace. >> how are you, julie? >> i'm good. >> good to see you. >> a lot to talk about today, including some disturbing education rankings coming out. >> yes. we're going to get to that as well.

we'll begin, though, with the train derailment in new york. this morning federal investigators are turning their attention to the engineer as new revelations of just how fast the train was going when it derailed. the on board data recorder revealed the train was going 82 miles per hour when it took that curve. it should have been traveling at just 30 miles per hour. nbc's tom costello has the latest on the investigation. >> reporter: on the tracks in the bronx, mta crews lifted the remains of the broken train as crash investigators went in for a closer look. tons of twisted steel scraped and crushed from sunday's violent crash. the ntsb announced the two black boxes recovered from the train have revealed a stunning development. >> the train was traveling at approximately 82 miles per hour as it went into a 30-mile-an-hour curve. >> reporter: 82 miles an hour. only six seconds before the train came to a complete stop, engine power was cut back. then the engineer suddenly applied full brakes.

>> when i heard about the speed, i gulped. it sort of takes your breath away. >> reporter: the engineer has told police he applied the brakes but they didn't work. but investigators say they're not aware of any problems with the brakes and they had worked at the nine stops before the train crashed. along this stretch of the hudson line, trains can run at 70 miles per hour, but they must slow dramatically down to 30 miles per hour as they make that left-hand turn. for whatever reason, that didn't happen. the engineer was in the first car as all the cars came barreling off the tracks coming to rest within inches of the harlem river. seven cars followed by the locomotive came around the bend, then flew off the tracks. as bad as it was, rail sources say had the cars gone into the river, many people could have drowned. speed and driver inattention had been factors in other rail disaster. in spain this year, 79 people died in a crash that investigators blamed on the engineer who was speeding and texting. in 2008, 25 died in chatsworth,

california. the ntsb said that driver was also speeding and texting just before the crash. ntsb investigators say they are now looking at the cell phone belonging to sunday's engineer. >> and, mike, that engineer is still alive. what's so frustrating about this, and we talked about this yesterday, was that our infrastructure is crumbling around, you know, the biggest city in america, and this was -- this accident, if this was the case, was totally avoidable. >> we are spending more on infrastructure in kandahar than we are in the united states of america. there is technology available that clearly, apparently, from what you read and hear, that would have slowed that train automatically prior to it reaching the bend. and it's been available for a couple of years and hasn't been installed because of delays, delays, and delays. >> and the city asked to delay

an akwircquirement that would h done this, pushed it off till 2015 because they didn't want to deal with it now. >> and look at us. outgoing mayor ply cal bloomberg has faced questions over his handling of the incident. "the wall street journal" reporting he was golfing in bermuda at the time of the crash and didn't leave the course until at least 1:00 p.m. local time. yesterday he visited victims in the hospital and said he was briefed for about 30 minutes right after the accident. "the new york daily news" quotes the mayor as saying, what can i do? i'm not a professional firefighter or police officer. nothing i can do. all i can do is make sure that the right people from new york city, our police commissioner, our fire commissioner, and emergency management commissioner, are there. >> john meacham, they want the mayor there, do they not? >> they want the mayor there. >> the last day he's in office. >> and that's unusual for bloomberg because he learned the giuliani lesson. he has been a tireless presence in the city. and that's pretty clearly -- you know, it's unfortunate

circumstance. he was out of town, but that's -- people who know bloomberg know that statement comes straight from the heart what he said. you know, because he is very -- there's a clinical core to bloomberg, you know. it's not a mistake or coincidence that his company is built on data. >> well, he's also correct. i mean, he has a right to a personal life. he was in bermuda. he was playing golf. he comes back, you know, when he could come back, i guess after 18, after he played 18. what could he do -- >> six years ago, he would have been gotten back home. >> would have gotten there immediately, willie. >> he's got a right to be away. it was thanksgiving. he was there with his family. i think the part people have a problem with is the minute you hear it, you get on the plane and come back. >> no doubt about it. mika, another story in the news today. >> a new report on american education this morning not looking good. the next generation. >> god, this is unbelievable. >> more good news this morning.

>> in fact, an international assessment of teenagers around the world shows u.s. students slipping even further behind in math, american 15-year-olds dropped six places since 2009. they now rank 31st among 65 countries and districts that make up the lion's share of the global economy. american teens are down four spots in science coming in at 24th. and they slipped another -- >> this is unbelievable in reading. >> -- ten spots to 21st when it comes to reading. reading. several chinese cities as well as japan and singapore saw their students improve significantly. >> willie geist, your mom has been involved in education reform. we were just talking about mike bloomberg, who's dedicated four years to it. the gates have spent billions and billions of dollars, and the only thing -- not the only thing but one of the main things they learned was what didn't work, which is reducing class size.

they spent billions of dollars on that, and another thing this study shows, that doesn't work. but, man, the past four years when it seems everybody's focus has turned to education reform in a big way, have just been disastrous, not disastrous but been terrible. our students are getting worse and worse. >> well, this is a trajectory we've seen for more than a decade, so it goes back and maybe you say, well, we'll get the reforms of the last few years some time to set until. but the reaction to the study was amazing to me. you had all these special interest groups across the board saying it's not our fault, not our fault. it's not the fact we're teaching the wrong way or holding teachers accountable through test scores. nobody wants to say, hey, there's a problem there, let's do something about it. everybody still, even when a big national crisis like this comes up, everyone goes into their bunkers and protects their own interests. we don't need that point of view. we need a point of view that says, wow, we've got a problem here. >> we need to dive in, all in. julie pace, race to the top, doesn't seem like they're going in the right direction.

>> it is pretty amazing when you look at these statistics and then you look at all of the time and attention that the administration says that they're focusing on education through programs like race to the top. i'm always struck when we travel overseas with president obama, particularly when we go to asia and you hear from foreign leaders and you hear from other folks about the education programs in their countries. there's this one story that the president talks about quite often when he went to south korea and the president of south korea told him that his biggest problem with education was that parents were getting too involved. they were calling the teachers too often. and it's just such a striking contrast to a lot of the stories that we hear about education here in the u.s. >> no doubt about it. and, mike -- or john, we are spending more. we talked about this yesterday. as a country. if it were only so easy, oh, we're not spending enough money on education, let's raise taxes and let's spend even more money on education. we spend more money per student than any other country in the

world, and yet we're falling further and further behind. your wife also very much involved in education reform. >> yep. >> i mean, it seems so many people have taken a real interest in this over the past decade. and the numbers keep slipping. >> they keep slipping. i'll quote my wife on this, who actually knows something about it. her view is, having worked through charter schools and worked in curriculum reform, is there is no silver bullet. and what might work in tennessee might not work in arizona, might not work in new york. >> one size fits all does not work. >> does not work. there's not a kind of -- i don't want to sound like a state's rights guy, but there's not a kind of national answer to this. but it is, in fact, now a national security issue. >> absolutely. >> it's about imperial decline. >> it is. and, mike, a very interesting thing about the study itself, poland has actually -- is one of the great success stories. and one of the things they did

was they focused more on who went to traditional colleges and who was moved over to vo tech areas. that's one area we're going to have to really have a radical overhaul of our education system because we need vo tech -- over the next decade, we need vo tech schools to really prosper. >> absolutely. that's part of the solution. the biggest part of the solution i felt for a long time is we have to listen to jack nicholson's line. you can't handle the truth as a nation. the parents have to be told that your son and your daughter in school today, on the global stage, everyone doesn't get a trophy. >> let's the urn to politics for one more story here, and we'll get to ac actiona a little late. the tensions behind presidential politics appear to be playing out between governors of neighboring states.

did you hear about this? rumors have been bubbling that chris christie met with a local new york republican about possibly running against incumbent democrat andrew cuomo for new york governor. in a recent phone call with the press, cuomo reportedly downp y downplayed the report, saying, "i can tell you this: i spoke to governor christie this morning, who told me the exact opposite. and i'll leave it at that." the comments put christie in a tight spot with his own party. >> you say? you don't say. >> yeah. okay. he's in charge of the republican governor's association, which tries to get republicans elected. yesterday, chris christie tried to set the record straight. >> mr. astorino hasn't told me or anybody else he's running for governor. i'm not supporting somebody who doesn't say they -- won't say whether they're running or not. i think it's much ado about nothing. and my guess is that some people, irresponsible folks, who are trying to urge mr. astorino

to run, to try to create an image that, you know, i'm urging him to run. i'm not urging him to do anything. he came and asked for time, specifically asked for time for me and mary pat, for he and his wife to talk about the impact this has on your children, they have young children like we do, and that was what the whole conversation was about. when we have a republican nominee for governor of new york, i'll support the republican nominee for governor of new york. >> what happened? >> i have no idea, because mr. astorino, as he said, i was at a republican governor's association, and apparently he's from westchester. >> yes, he is. >> won by a 2-1 margin up there as a conservative in a very democratic area. but everybody there knew he was running. i mean, i don't understand the confusion here. he's talked to ed cox and he's running. >> why would it be a bad thing? if chris christie is the head of

the rg action you would assume he would take up the cause of mr. astorino. i don't know why he'd run away from that. >> he and andrew cuomo have had a good relationship on the phone. when cuomo first got elected he was calling chris christie an awful lot. not that he'd want to admit that to his democrat friends, but he got a lot of guidance from chris christie early on. so i guess they have a pretty close relationship. and i'm sure -- i'm not going to actually speculate what went on between the two of them. >> yeah. i wonder. >> well, i'm just going to stop there. they've had a very good relationship over the phone for the past several years. >> did they just do you think violated a kind of incumbent's protection club? >> yeah. yes. >> well, i don't know. >> culturally? >> i don't know. but there is no such code if you're the head of the republican governor's association and you hugged barack obama a couple weeks before, you know, or a week before the election. i'm just saying.

politics-wise, you know, chris christie -- chris is a good friends of ours and we talk to chris an awful lot over the phone. but, i mean, he knows this and i'm sure all the people around him know this, if he's running for president, he can't afford too many more touchy feely moments with democrats. >> right. >> so he does have to aggressively now be out for every republican candidate running for goff nvernor. right? you're smiling. maybe not? what? >> i think he likes hanging around with democrats. >> you think chris does. >> yeah. >> come on. coming up on "morning joe," we'll check in with politico's jim vandehei. >> oh, i hate him. >> i know. >> joking. how you doing, jim? >> plus, how hospitals have become profit centers, leaving patients to pick up the tab pap new report explains how emergency rooms are reaping millions off the same supplies found in the pharmacy for pennies on the dollar. >> wow. >> but first here's care ca ee' with a check on the forecast. >> you should be ashamed of

yourself. you can pick on me, but jim's innocent, at least, unlike me. good morning, everyone. travel trouble in the middle of the country. fog dense from illinois to texas this morning and louisiana, and now we have a big winter storm that's going to move across the country with a significant cold blast behind it. the reason i'm showing you the maps of the temperatures in canada, look at that minus 26 in churchill. that's the cold air that's going to head south behind this big storm. it's going to be frigid even by northern plains standards by the end of this week. the storm is located over the top of wyoming. highways closed including interstate 90 across the northern portion of the state. by thursday, areas like oklahoma, arkansas, and dallas, that rain will be changing to freezing rain and sleet. your forecast for today, look at the cold air in montana. enjoy the warmth while it lasts. look at dallas at 76 today. temperature plunges. denver, high of 10 with snow, maybe 6 to 10 inches tomorrow. and look what happens in dallas. you go from 62 to 42 to 30 with sleet and freezing rain.

you're in shorts today in dallas. scraping ice by the end of this week. we leave you with a shot of washington, d.c. by the way, that rain will make it to the east coast thursday and friday but no snow or sleet. ready to run your lines? okay, who helps you focus on your recovery? yo, yo, yo. aflac. wow. [ under his breath ] that was horrible. pays you cash when you're sick or hurt? [ japanese accent ] aflac. love it. [ under his breath ] hate it. helps you focus on getting back to normal? [ as a southern belle ] aflac. [ as a cowboy ] aflac. [ sassily ] aflac. uh huh. [ under his breath ] i am so fired. you're on in 5, duck. [ male announcer ] when you're sick or hurt, aflac pays you cash. find out more at aflac.com.

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wow. >> okay. i'm sorry. forget the morning papers. can we go back to that picture? willie geist. >> it's iconic. >> this is nathan once again. >> that's nathan. >> that's going over the

fireplace. if i had a fireplace, it would go over the fireplace. >> it's going over my fireplace. >> willie, get a fake fireplace you put against the wall and put the picture over it. >> put that back up if you will. >> all right. >> again, like a couple bathrooms in my house. i'm going to frame these. >> that's a great idea. >> in the master or -- >> let's take a look at the morning papers. the "detroit free press" in just a few hours a judge will rule if detroit should get the green light to proceed with its chapter 9 bankruptcy filing. if approved, the $18 billion public bankruptcy would be the largest in u.s. history. >> and from the telegraph, police in iceland shot and killed an armed gunman marking the first time a police operation resulted in the death in the country's history. reports say the suspect was killed after shooting two unarmed officers who tried to enter his apartment. iceland has an incredibly low crime rate. in 2009 there were only four gun-related deaths. by comparison, there were 31,000 gun deaths in the u.s. >> all right.

"usa today," legendary singer bob dylan -- >> what do they use, ice picks? >> -- is facing charges of incitement to hatred in france. it all stems from an interview he gooif "rolling stone" more than a year ago where he was talking about racism in america. he said, "if you got a slave master or a klan in your blood, blacks can sense that. that stuff lingers to this day. just like jews can sense nazi blood and thor is bs can sense croatian blood." i think bob should just write, like, songs. >> a croatian group in france initiated p the complaint. dylan is facing a year in prison and a fine. >> and from "usa today," amazon ceo jeff bezos gave us a glimpse at the future of commercial drone use. and it may be lucrative. the faa is expected to draft new regulations by 2015. the change could boost the economy by more than $13 billion, create 70,000 jobs in first three years alone. an absolute boom for those guys

that, you know, cut tree branches. >> oh, yeah. >> tree services. >> i hadn't thought of that. >> san jose "mercury news." online shoppers broke records on cyber monday with sales up as much as 19% from last year. experts say yesterday may have been the heaviest online shopping day in history. possibly drawing in more than $2 billion in sales. estimates project more than 130 million americans would go online to cash in on holiday sales. >> and from the desert sun, applebee's is going to place tablets at every table in all of its locations by the end of 2014. they won't replace servers but they'll order customers to order aigs nal food, play games -- applebee's is the largest chain, really. i mean, i love applebee's. >> so now in the event you might have forgotten your own screen so you can have no human contact, there will be one right there. >> can we get some of those in

schools? >> they're expected to roll out more than 100,000 tablets to nearly 2,000 restaurants. >> all right. >> well, look. >> a look at the politico playbook. the president and ceo of politico. >> how was the rollout? >> it's good. you go to the site, launched today. >> what is it? show me. >> capitalnewyork.com. >> all right. oh my god. >> dotcom! >> dotcom! >> let's talk business, jim. after nearly two months of battling negative headlines, white house as you know looking to turn the page on obama care. today the president kicks off a new three-week campaign to refocus the public's attention on the positive aspects of the health care law. what does that entail? >> well, you know, this is what democrats wanted for two years. they say that every day between now and december 23rd they're going to do some event often coordinated with congressional democrats to talk about each day one different, good part of the health care law in their view.

and the idea is they've got to do something about the poll numbers for health care reform, they have to do something to recalibrate the debate given what they've gone through possibly the worst possible coverage of the rollout of a new initiative for the white house. the question is does that work? if people start to get health care coverage you'll have a slightly different debate. the question we noent know for months is how much damage was done and is this thing actually fixed? you had a good conversation yesterday on the show about yes, the front end is fixed but is the back end fixed in a way that's going to lead people to getting coverage that they can trust that they actually have that insurance companies know what benefits they're getting as far as subsidies from the government to provide? >> well, that's the thing, julie. if you're going to go on this big campaign to highlight the website and highlight the plan and the program, it better work. right? so the front end of the website might work, but they're still having problems with insurers. is the white house confident this will all be smoothed out by the time they get through this three-week campaign? >> they feel fairly confident, i would say.

one of the big things, though, that they're worried about is what happens on the back end of the website. now they've been able to have the page load faster. they've been able to have more people get onto the site. but what they're still finding is that those folks who actually are able to enroll when their information goes to insurer, it's garbled, in some cases the insurer s say it's totally unusable. they're worried that people who have waited it out, gotten through the site and enrolled may come outjanuary 1st when they go to use their benefits actually may not have coverage and that would be the latest indignity for this program. >> jim vandehei, thanks. when hospitals sent their own prices, a single stitch could cost you $500, while a 50-cent pain reliever could go for $20. elizabeth rosenthal is here with her startling new report on how emergency rooms are jacking up the cost of care. zrs dr. nancy snyderman will also join us. [ lane ] do you ever feel like you're growing old

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in florida, alexandria brooks' hospital bill was drjaw dropping, nearly a million dollars to treat life-threatening double pneumonia and a six-week hospital stay. among the charges nearly $37,000 for an 82-mile air medical flight between hospitals. >> shocking thing about it is that's the hospital bill for one hospital. that's not -- i was in a total of three hospitals over 2 1/2 months. >> reporter: her insurance will cover some but not all of her costs. the insurance industry says the country needs to see what hospitals charge. >> we really need to be looking at not only the prices but what is the quality and what is ultimately the value patients are getting for their health care dollars? >> that was a "nightly news" report from may, a common story for many families across the country. joining us on the set with the latest installment from "the new york times" "paying till it hurts" series, correspondent libby rosenthal and nbc's chief medical editor dr. nancy

snyderman. thanks for being on. libby, you write in your latest piece, it covers the rising costs of trips to the e.r. and in part you write this. "in a medical system notorious for opaque finances and inflated bills, nothing is more convoluted than hospital pricing. hospital charges represent about a third of the $2.7 trillion annual united states health care bill and are the largest driver of medical inflation. the main reason for high hospital costs in the u.s., economists say, is fiscal, not medical. hospitals are the most powerful players in a health care system that has little or no price regulation." you have a lot of really great examples in this piece. were you stunned? >> i was completely stunned. i knew it was bad, but i didn't know how bad it was. i should say all of the people in this piece were people who wrote to "the new york times" saying i want to show you something. so we're not looking for people. >> this came to you. not hard to find.

let's look at some of the primary examples you cite. pacific medical center in california, some of the price mark-ups for routine supplies and procedures. tylenol with codeine, $36 mark-up. an i.v. fluid bag more than $135. a new brace which goes for about 20 bucks they charge over 150 bucks. an echocardiogram costs nearly $1,800, and that doesn't include the doctor fees, the whole package $350 market value. a knee arthroscopy is marked up more than $12,000. am i reading that right? >> it's pretty impressive. >> what's the hospitals' explanation? what's the excuse? >> the hospitals' explanation, and you have feel a little sorry for them in some senses, hospitals are complicated place who is pay doctors, you have to keep an emergency room open 24/7. there are all these services that they don't get compensated for.

there are lots of nurses, you know, they have to build new buildings. in the case of california pacific, they had to build an earthquake-proof building. so they have lots of expenses. on the other hand, these charges are kind of pulled out of thin air. >> for full transparency, this was my hospital before i moved to the east coast. i'm on faculty at california pacific. this is where i had my ear, nose, and throat and head/neck surgery practice. i know this hospital very well. i know the ceos and all the players. you have to mark -- you have to pay more for a tylenol because you have to pay nurses and upkeep and feeding patients, et cetera, and california's a very expensive place for earthquake rhett petrofitting. you can explain some charges to that extent. but what you can't explain is the nontransparency of it and the fact that california pacific pays -- charges more than maybe a hospital south of market or ucla. it's just goofy. there's just no rhyme nor reason

to why some hospitals charge more than others. >> charges for nurses, don't charge $36 for a tylenol. >> but you don't charge for nurses that way. the problem is nurses are salaried, the crowe roe is salaried so you sort of pool your resources. >> but if you do it -- >> i'm not defending them, joe. >> you can't bid the cost curve over decade or 20 or 30 years because it's hidden costs. i say this to conservatives all the time. we don't like obama care. we want to get rid of the affordable care act. but if anybody belief es that replacing it with absolutely nothing bends the cost curve, they ignore the fact that so many people go to emergency rooms at 11:00 at night that don't have health care insurance and that's your primary care provider. and we're paying these charges. >> well, you can go to city after city after city on a friday or saturday night and find out that the emergency room is the family doctor. >> therein lies one of the big problems. >> there's another problem i want to ask both of you about, but let's start with you, doctor, because you are a doctor and have been a doctor for a

long time. how did we arrive at a culture where all of us here today, if we bought life's necessities, a house, a car, a set, a pair of shoes we would ask the price before we bought it. >> i think it started when my father was doctor was fee for service. you knew if you couldn't pay your bill you would pay farm supplies or barter and doctors wrote things off. that sort of mushroomed into you don't worry about it, sweetheart, i'll take care of everything. and this quiet layering on of costs, you know, we make the analogy all the time that you would never take your car into a garage and not expect to see on a board what things cost. but we wander into hospitals all the time and you and i, all of us, assume, well, some third party will pay for it. reality is we all end up paying for it. the number-one cause of houses going under and people losing their primary residence, it's not the subprime mortgage problem. it was health care problems. we all contributed this because we wanted something for nothing. even little old ladies in chanel

suits don't like $20 co-pays. >> look at the case studies, libby, that you bring to the table. one woman, three stitches for a cut on her knee from a backyard barbecue, $2,200. a 2-year-old who hit her forehead on a table. what are you going to do when your 2-year-old has a big egg on the head? you go to the hospital, right? or the doctor says you have to go to the hospital. right? billed $529 for supplies and devices even though she left the e.r. with a piece of gauze and a sticker. >> right. >> and i think the point i want to make, too, is these are not rich people. these are average people, and many of us, whether we're in affordable care act plans or out of them, are paying more and more in the way of co-pays and deductibles. so these $2,000 e.r. bills, you might say, well, it's no problem, insurance is paying them. they're not anymore. these patients are suffering for three stitches, you know, $700,

$1,000. stitches that when i was a kid or when my kids were a kid would have been taken care of for $100, $200 in a doctor's office. >> the entire system is crazy. >> out of control. >> we're talking about e.r. right now. i'll give you -- here's one of my stories. we sent our 10-year-old daughter to get a little mole off her back. it was a little dark. the doctor was concerned. and so we went back, took it out. we got a bill for $3,500. >> wow. >> $3,500. and i started looking at it. of course i'm going to stay on phone until hell freezes over and i'm not going to pay that bill. >> and you know what, you'll be able to negotiate it down, which the average person doesn't know. ? and they don't know that, so we're talking about the e.r., which is the biggest problem, but this health care system is insane. it's inefficient. >> and do you know what? doctors, ceos, health care administrators are not rewarded

for outcomes. they're rewarded for technology that's in hospital and for patients saying i love my hospital. but not prevention of neonatal death, not o.b. rates, not cancer outcomes. so there's no accountability. >> libby, one of the luckiest things that happened to me in 2004, my back went out five years after a surgery, i didn't walk for three, four months, was in bed and the reason i didn't get surgery again when i was 42 years old, i'm 50 now, is because i was lucky that i crashed in a hotel room across the street from the cleveland clinic, we go over there, the best physician in america here, he's so great, and he looked at me and he goes, you know what dogs do when they're hurt? i said what? they go in the corner and they stay in the corner until they don't hurt anymore. you're going to hate me. i'm going to send you back to florida and you're probably not going to walk for two, three months, but if i operate on you you're going to have one fusion after another. you won't be walking by the time you're 50 years old. all the other doctors that i knew, they all wanted to operate.

>> sure. always from a surgeon. >> but why? because just like nancy said, he was rewarded by results. eight years later, i'm healthier than i've ever been and my back is better because it's -- >> this isn't like this is a bad hospital that libby talked about. it's a really good hospital. >> how do we go to a system where we actually reward positive outcomes? >> there have been countless -- since i was in medical school, countless experiments trying to do this. on the other hand, part of the problem is us. you know, there are a lot of patients wouldn't go in and say, okay, i'm going to go wait. they're, like, my back hurt, i want it fixed now. >> bingo. >> most doctors, when we get sick, we run away from hospitals. we wait. but a lot of patients want something done pronto. i think the point you make about the cleveland clinic, you know, the cleveland clinic is a wonderful hospital, but the point i want to make for everyone is that there is no study that's shown a correlation between how much you pay and

your outcome. in fact, there's -- the hospitals that are very expensive often tend to have high rates of -- >> let me ask this really quickly and then we have to go to break. mike, as you get older, are you like me as i get older? i stay away from hospitals as much as possible. >> absolutely. and not because i'm scared of hospitals because our doctor's office -- i know when you go there, chances are good that your child will go there and then who knows, maybe it's one test after another test after another test and while you're there, they pick up an infection. less is more. >> fall, hospitals are germ factories. >> exactly. >> secondly, you want to stay away from doctors if you're feeling reasonably good unless you have a life-threatening condition because they're going to find something wrong with you. let's have a c.a.t. scan. you're never going to ask what the price is. >> joe, you had the luxury of taking off three, four weeks or three or four months and your

employer wouldn't fire you. if you're working on an assembly line, your employer would rather pay for the surgery and get you back than say of course take that quiet time. employers feed into the problem, too. >> it wasn't really a luxury. i couldn't walk. >> you know what i'm saying. you had the option to choose. >> by the way, i couldn't walk because phil griffin, when i had bad surgery from 2004, it's all phil's fault. phil will admit it. >> you know what i mean. >> i do. >> i should have sued you. the painkillers were great. >> you didn't poop for two months. >> oh my gosh. >> that's what painkillers do, don't they, libby. i know. we just know these things. >> libby will be rejoining us. dr. nancy, thank you. check it out. dr. nancy snyderman, thank you. today's business headlines are next. stick with innovation.

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time for the "morning joe" b.s. fest. >> oh, my gosh. >> business for the bell with brian sullivan. important week in the world of business. what's going on? >> hey, brian. good morning, guys. i know you've been all over the detroit story as we have here. at 10:00 this morning we'll get a ruling from the bankruptcy judge in detroit. it will be a big headline. it won't be a ruling on the bankruptcy per se but as to whether the bankruptcy itself can proceed. basically everybody expects the bankruptcy to go forward. if it does, the city will come forward with a plan then within the month. that will say what kind of cuts they are proposing. then those cuts will be fought over still. the ruling at 10:00 a.m. will determine whether the bankruptcy can proceed. it is expected that it will because many view the city as

truly being insolvent. apple paying $200 million to buy a twitter analytics company called topsy. apple will be able to read and analyze every single tweet sent by every single human being on the planet going back to the beginning of twitter. that's good news. >> why would anyone want to do that? >> because we are -- listen, guys. if you can't figure out what the product is, it's you. right? all these companies get rich off us. we are the product, my friend. our poewes, our -- it's us. >> all right. >> mika's rolling her eyes as we speak. >> i am. okay. thank you for all that b.s. i see a world bursting with opportunity,

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welcome back to "morning joe." ted williams was john glenn's wing man in world war ii. >> it's funny. that's what i learned. >> really. >> it was. >> ted williams is the real john wayne. >> take a look at the world of selfies. >> oh, stop it. >> keep it moving. >> what did you learn, mika? >> don't ever do that to me again, t.j. ever. >> that's good. >> i didn't know that happened. >> you love cats. >> like a saddam cat. >> don't you love cats? >> mm-hmm. >> like a north korean cat. >> and that's my favorite picture right there, willie geist. >> ron burgundy. >> look at that.

if it's way too early, it's "morning joe." but, mike, what time is it right now? >> ordinarily it would be time for "morning joe" but actually it's now time for chuck todd and "the daily rundown." more than a website. that's what you'll hear from president obama today as his team tries again to put the tech trouble behind them and launch a major push again to get folks to sign up including an exclusive sitdown with msnbc. also this morning, as joe biden makes a swing across key country, we'll take a look at what's at stake for the u.s. with this asia visit. and new details this morning on the deadly commuter train wreck in new york. investigators say the train was going three times as fast as it should have been on that sharp curve. good morning from washin.